Steve Garfield joins us for episode 17 of Inbound Now.
Steve is author of Get Seen and one of the world's first video bloggers.
In the show we chat about:
David: Hey everybody. Welcome to Episode Number 17 of Inbound Now. I'm joined here with a very special guest, Mr. Steve Garfield. Welcome to the show, Steve.
Steve: Oh, awesome. Thank you. Episode 17, that's great.
David: It is. It's getting up there, man. My curse for podcasting is Episode 18. I've never gotten over episode 18 in any podcast I've done, so this will be the one.
Steve: They all die.
David: It's hard, it's hard.
Steve: So, here we go. All right.
David: So don't kill my show, Steve.
Steve: I'll try not to.
David: But Steve, he is the author of "Get Seen: Online Video Secrets to Building Your Business." It's a great book. I read it before the interview. It is fantastic. He's also one of the first people online to do online video blogging, which is pretty interesting. We'll get into that a little bit. He's really an online video mastermind. He kind of knows every single gadget/gizmo, and he talks about it a lot in the book and all over his blog, everywhere on the Web. You seem to be everywhere.
Steve: I am pretty much everywhere we're talking about online video, but I don't know everything.
David: You don't know everything. Okay. Well, that's good. And he's humble. He's humble everybody. Look at that.
Steve: Yeah, I don't know everything.
David: Cool. So Steve, you write the book about all these things online video. But why would companies want to start producing online video? What's the idea behind it?
Steve: Why would companies want to start doing online video? Well, because! You capture the emotion of people. Companies are made up of people, and people have stories. Video is the best way to tell a story. How could you tell how excited I am right now with me writing, "I am excited right now," reading that text. Video is the best way to tell a story.
David: Right. I would totally agree, and it's a great way to give people a behind the scenes look into your company. You can blog, but the video just adds every kind of emotion into it, right?
Steve: Behind the scenes is the perfect way to use video. One of the best examples of that is Scoble. Robert Scoble did it with Microsoft. When Microsoft was just known as Microsoft Corporation, he went in with a camera, started interviewing people, putting those videos up on the Web, and it personalized the company, totally changed really everything.
David: I would totally agree. Scoble's done a lot of crazy things since then. I love his blog. Maybe I should get him on the show, too.
Steve: You should. And he's still doing it, too. He interviews people in startups now all the time, so you can get to see what the people behind the company are like. They give you a little demo right there. It's like all one shot, no editing. It kind of just shows you, and you get to really see what the products are like and what the people are like.
David: Okay, cool. So, with companies, once they realize that it's a great way to connect with their audience, kind of humanize their brand, where should they start? It's baffling to a lot of companies. It's like, "Okay, I see video everywhere. YouTube's getting big, the second largest search engine. But where to start?"
Steve: People are intimidated by thinking about starting. It's like, "All the gear and all the great cameras to choose from. And how do I edit? And how do I put it up online?" There are like a million questions that they'll have, and I can see how they get stumped on this. And it still happens, because I go out and teach this a lot. Basically, they should start with what they have. What do they have? An iPhone shoots great HD video. Use that, shoot some video. Once you're done shooting a video on your iPhone, you can push a button and it says, "Post to YouTube." It can't be any simpler than that.
I did a book signing in New York one time, and I wanted to get a video of me signing the book in New York City, and it was really exciting. I asked the guy from the bookstore, could he shoot the video. He was like, "Oh, I've never . . . I don't really know." I'm like, "Here. Just push this button and shoot the video," and I gave him my iPhone. He shot the video of me signing my book in New York, and then we hit stop. I said, "Okay, I'm going to put this thing up on YouTube now." He was like, "What do you mean?" I'm like, "Well, right here. Save to YouTube. Title, description, up." He was like, "Really? I'm going to get an iPhone, and I'm going to put all the authors who come in and have their book signings up on YouTube." He just didn't know, and that's just one example of how easy it can be.
David: Yeah. The barriers of entry are so low now. That's relatively new, right?
Steve: Fairly new. Over the past year, the iPhone's made it really easy. Another thing I'll say is for companies to use a MacBook Pro or any PC with a webcam. We're talking about YouTube right now, you can go to YouTube and where it says "Upload a Video," if you click that, there's another option on there that says "Record." You can just record directly to YouTube with a webcam. So you hit record, say your thing, hit stop. You can play it and see if you like it or not, and if you like it you hit save, and it's on YouTube with no editing. I'm not saying you shouldn't edit. We're just talking about how to get started, and what I'm saying is it's easy really.
David: And that's one of the things that I think scares a lot of businesses. They feel the need to edit all this stuff and make it so polished that it takes forever to get anything out the door. Right?
Steve: Yeah, exactly. They're afraid to look bad in video. Not that I need to, but I give them permission to do what we're calling casual video. Just put up a casual video. Share some moments or just talk to someone or get some people talking about your product.
A really great example of this is Chevrolet. If you go to the Chevrolet website and it's these multimillion dollar TV commercials that look gorgeous. They also have a blog, a media blog. It's Chevrolet.Posterous.com. Over there, they just throw up YouTube videos, little Flip videos and things. They have the Volt car, the Chevy Volt, the electric car. People drive it, and then they get out of the car, and some marketing person with a Flip cam says, "What did you think about the car?" And they'll say it in like six seconds something like, "It was great. I really like the ride, and it's a lot bigger than I thought."
They'll take that video and put it up on the Posterous blog. No editing, no titles, no credits, no music, nothing, but it's this real and authentic moment that they captured and put up. And the thing that's cool about it that this is the distinction if you go to Chevrolet.com, you're expecting highly produced videos. You go to Chevrolet.Posterous.com, you're like, "Okay. It's a blog. I'll be getting these random videos and things." So it's setting the expectation of what the visitor to the site is going to get. So it's a fine place to put casual videos like this.
David: Right. Totally. And it just shows that there's a human side to Chevrolet, big Chevrolet. The mentality is shifting away from that million-dollar spot in the Super Bowl to more quick video shoots here and there. You don't need a huge production budget to get into the video game.
Steve: No. No way, you don't. You can just start with, really, whatever you have.
David: Cool, yeah. So you mentioned in the book the five things to becoming successful with online videos, like publishing on a regular basis, setting your videos free. So, can you kind of explain some of those and talk about that?
Steve: Setting your videos free is a big one right now, because people will want to take a video and just have it on their own site. They want to have people come to their page because maybe they have other messaging or advertising surrounding it. They want these ad impressions on their own site. But guess what? No one's going to visit your site. Well, they might, but they're going to YouTube and they're going to Vimeo and all these different places on the Web. So what I like to say is you can set your video free and let it go to all these different places, but the important thing is to use the description.
The first thing you need to do in your description of your video when you have it on YouTube is to put the URL of your site so people will come back. So let's say they find you on YouTube, and then they go and they click and they find your site. Then they're like, "Oh, okay. Now I can subscribe over here and go visit the site." They'll find you through inbound marketing.
So, I have a lot of tips like that. In those five might be one to really name it, the title, and put in the description what's going on in the video, and not really use any fake gimmicks with this stuff. Just describe what's in the video, so when people are searching on Google, they'll see the text of the video. And then when they get to the video, they're going to see what you said was in the video. So it all makes sense, and that's how your videos get found, by using good titles and descriptions. One thing about titles I'll just throw out as a tip. I did this show with my wife, "The Carol and Steve Show."
David: Nice.
Steve: Yeah. We did over 52 episodes, but one year, we did one a weekend, and we did what we did on the weekend. I was titling them all "The Carol and Steve Show Episode 51," which tells you nothing. And then on YouTube, when you're looking at similar videos, it cuts the title shorter, so all you saw on the sidebar was "The Carol and Ste." So, what would have been better would have been something to say like, "At the Red Sox Game" or "Boston Common and Revolutionary War." Something that would let you know more of what's in the video.
David: And then have your show name trailing that.
Steve: Yeah.
David: Exactly.
Steve: Or you don't even need it, because the account name is TheCarolandSteveShow. You could put it all in the description and things. I'm doing this a lot more even on my blog. My titles are getting crazy. They're like 15 words long. I used to maybe make them shorter, but it's all about giving a good title and description. It's really important.
David: Yeah, video SEO is totally key, because they can't index any of that content in there. Another thing that I wanted to ask you about is do you do transcriptions of some of your videos? Because everything that we're saying here, it's going to be transcribed and put on the Web so they can find us via what we're saying.
Steve: Transcriptions is a brilliant thing. For this kind of show, a talk show like this, where everything that I say ends up being transcribed and put in the description, Google will find that, and then people who are looking for this content will find it because of the transcription. So, when I did the book, I did maybe over 30 interviews. I sent them all to a transcriber. I sent her the MP3 audios. She had this kind of machine thing where she has a foot pedal, and she listens and transcribes it, sent me all the transcriptions back. So I used those transcriptions in the book. I took what she gave me and said, "Hey, I interviewed this person." Bonk! And there's all these words. I put the videos up online, and I put those transcriptions right in the description. Perfect way to do it. Yeah, totally great.
David: Totally, yeah. Repurposing that content is key. So, in your mind right now for businesses out there, what do you think the main platform for video is? Would it be YouTube? Would it be putting the videos on Vimeo? Would it be blip.tv? Do you have a key place that you'd recommend, or kind of blast it everywhere?
Steve: Yes, to all of those places. I wouldn't discount Vimeo for YouTube, and you can put it on all the places. You'll find that you might get a community of people that are starting to follow you on one place more than the other. Like Vimeo has a really nice community that's all into the production of the video and how it looks. It depends on really what the content is. But you might find a really great community on one of the number of sites that you put your video on, and then you could spend more time in there. So you mentioned putting your video up online. I'm going to put it up on all the sites, and each site has these benefits.
One thing I really like about blip.tv is if you're doing a series, blip.tv is great for that. Also, it can let you share in advertising revenue. But I have one of my video blogs on blip, and when I upload my video to blip, I have it set to automatically post to my blog, so it saves me a step. When you post a video to YouTube, I need to grab, embed code, copy it, go to my blog, and then paste it. So that's an extra step. So there's a good workflow for using blip. And another thing that blip does is you can check off a box and say, once you upload to blip, post it over to my blog and put it on YouTube. So it's all in one step, and you're not discounting the benefits of having it in both places. And then on YouTube and on blip, you want to have your URL back to your own site.
David: Right. So this show is placed on blip.tv, and it's great. So basically, it helps you syndicate it through iTunes and all those other places that you mentioned.
Steve: Right. Yahoo! All kinds of places. Blip lets you syndicate all over the place.
David: And it just makes it dead simple. Every video, it transcribes it into an MP3 as well, and if people just want to listen to the audio version of your show, that's fine, too. That's coming soon everybody.
Steve: And it lets you download, too. In fact, the official YouTube doesn't let you download, but blip does.
David: Right, exactly. And it's $100 a year. You could not beat that price. So, big shout out to blip out there. So with video, what are some of the biggest mistakes you see companies making when they're like, "Okay. We understand. We need to make video, but . . ." They jump into it, and they just kind of step on their own toes. What kind of mistakes do you see?
Steve: Well, they are poorly produced, lame videos. Okay. The number one problem of a bad video is bad audio. It could be gorgeous, and if you can't hear [mumbling] . . .
David: [laughs]
Steve: People are not going to be listening anymore. The reason the audio is so important is, let's say this show right here. I bet you people who call in, do they @ message you on Twitter?
David: Yeah. @InboundNow.
Steve: @InboundNow or @SteveGarfield. I would like to know the answer to this. Right now, are you watching us on video, or did you put the video on a page behind, and you're looking through your e-mail or browsing the Web? A lot of times when I'm watching a show like this, I really don't watch anymore. I open up the show, and I see what the people look like and who they are, and then I'll put that in the background, and I'm listening while I'm multi-tasking and doing something else.
So, to bring us back, audio has to be the most important. I have another example of that, too. I did a webinar live streaming, which we didn't even talk about yet. Instead of recording, another easy way to do it is to do live stream. Hit the button to start streaming. It goes out live. Hit the button to stop, and you're done. The last one I did with Hill Holliday, they hired a professional audio company to come in. So I just got to jack into their audio, and people were commenting saying it was the best live stream they've ever seen. I think part of that was the audio was so brilliant. So number one has got to be good audio.
David: Yeah, definitely.
Steve: If the video is kind of eh, but the audio is ringing and you can't really hear, there's no way. It's just going to give you a headache.
David: I totally agree. So talking about live streaming stuff, let's get into that, because I think that's a newer kind of phenomenon that people are doing. And with the live streaming, you have that recording afterwards, too, to repurpose and spread everywhere, right? So how have you been using that? How have you seen companies using that?
Steve: Live streaming is so easy. A number of ways that companies can do live stream, two of the most popular, well three I'll say, Ustream, Livestream, Justin.tv are just on the top of my mind. I use Ustream, and I'm actually evaluating some software that works with Ustream, and it's called Wirecast. That let's me produce a multi-camera shoot live. So I can have multi-cameras, like we have me, and we have you, and then we have a wide shot. You can cut that in later. So, Wirecast has a lot of features. Even if you don't want to get involved with Wirecast, you can use Ustream.
So the easiest way is to go to Ustream.tv, sign up for an account, and then turn on your webcam and broadcast. Then you hit stop, and you're done. That's really easy. Ustream also has a desktop client that you can get that starts using the processor of your computer to make things better and more reliable and a better picture so you can get that client. There's a free version and a paid version, so there are different levels. But you can just start with the Ustream.tv site.
David: And with live streaming, do you think it's critically important that it's not just a one-off thing, like you're going to do a live stream once. It's kind of like every week or every two weeks, you have a live stream so people have that expectation so you can build up an audience moving forward?
Steve: I wouldn't say that's a rule. It doesn't have to be. I actually have a live show that I do every Thursday at 2:00.
David: "On The Pulse," right?
Steve: Right. "On The Pulse Network." SteveGarfield.tv if people want to see it. Every Thursday at 2:00. So the thing about that is people don't have to say, "Oh, when are you doing a show? When are you going live?" They know every Thursday at 2:00, that's my show. So that's the good thing about having a regular schedule. But on the other hand, you have someone like Gary Vaynerchuk, and he's GaryV on Twitter. He'll just be like, "I'm going live! Come see me. I'm here," or, 'I'm there," or, "Something's happening, I'm live." So, that's great, too, because you're getting the spontaneity of he's somewhere, and he wants to bring you to wherever he is or whatever he's doing.
And the cool thing about that is as you follow him on Twitter, he'll say, "I'm going live. Come see what I'm doing." So there's the excitement of it just being spur of the moment. Those live things that aren't on a regular schedule can be announced in advance. So if I'm going to do something next Tuesday at 1:00, I can send out e-mails to my list, or I could put it on my blog or send it out to Twitter, "Hey, I've got a special thing happening at Tuesday at 1:00," and people can come see it. I like both ways.
David: So, you mentioned Gary V. He's kind of one of the guys, the major success story of someone who used leveraged online video to basically just build out his company and just build up his own personal brand as well.
Steve: He totally did it, yeah.
David: Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about that. I want to get him on a future show. He just had that "Thank You Economy" book. I'm reading it right now. So, he just started Wine Library TV, where he shoots a video a week and just talks about a different bottle of wine. It's an idea that simple that a company can just leverage and use helpful information, put it out there, and educate their audience.
Steve: I think he did it daily.
David: Oh, really?
Steve: Wine Library TV every day, Monday through Friday. So, the way he started was he had someone in the store run out to Best Buy and grab a camera. They put it on a tripod, and they turned it on, and he did his show. He talked about wine, the thing that he's knowledgeable about, passionate about, stopped the recording, and then they put a title and a credit on and put it out. No editing. So that shows how easy it is to do, and they did it regularly, every day, Monday through Friday. So, that was a great way of doing that.
I actually saw him down here in Foxboro Stadium where the Patriots play, Gillette Stadium now, and he wants to do a Wine Library TV show from every major football stadium in the country. So he was at Gillette, and he was going to do a show, and I wanted to watch him shoot it. I saw his producer, and he was like, "Okay. Let's go do the show." I'm like, "Where's all your equipment? Lights, cameras, stuff and everything?" He had a Flip cam. No tripod either. He just stood there, and Gary was at this field, and he just hit record and shot it.
The sun was coming into the camera, wrong. No microphone, wrong. No tripod, wrong. But really, everything was right about that, because he was there, he was passionate, he did his show, he had the Flip cam, did the video, put it up. It was brilliant. So even though everything was wrong about it, everything was right about it because he did the show. You could hear. It looked good. So you don't have to be perfect to do these videos.
David: It's really more about the content and just the passion behind it, right?
Steve: Exactly.
David: So, when I was starting this show and starting out getting into online video, you've got to get used to being on camera watching yourself, editing yourself, right? So what are some tips? This is actually a question from one of our other consultants here, Billy McDonald. He asks, what are some tips for talking to the camera, getting used to that kind of feeling?
Steve: Yeah. Well, Billy, thanks for asking. You just need to be comfortable with yourself. It's a thing that you get with practice. One thing that you can do when you record videos is you don't have to show them to anybody. You can do a recording and see what you're like and then say, "Okay. So I wasn't looking at the camera," or whichever way you weren't doing it right. And just do it over and over and get better. There was a video conversation site I used to be on called Seesmic. They shut it down.
But in the beginning, it had problems and it would crash sometimes, so you'd be recording your video, and it would crash and you'd have to re-record it again. So that re-recording of the same thing made you better. It was kind of like practice. Another thing that I like to do is go take classes. I took a couple of classes in stand-up comedy.
David: You're hilarious, man!
Steve: I'm hilarious! It worked. Acting classes. Some people, being on camera might not be the best thing for them. So, maybe some training could help, like public speaking classes, things like that. Some people are just natural and really great. One good thing to do is to forget that there are cameras here. I'm not really talking to a camera. I already forgot that we're doing a show basically. I'm thinking that I'm talking to you. When I'm in my office and I'm doing a video, I'm not thinking that I'm making a video. I'm actually thinking that I'm talking to a person and just explaining this thing.
I do so much less of trying to be, "Hello, and here now, the news," like trying to be a fake person. I don't think that way at all. I'm just being authentic and real, which is really the way you want to get to, but you have to learn that you don't need to be a fake person to be real. It could be tough for people.
David: Yeah. It totally makes sense. I get exactly what you're saying. Sometimes I'll be thinking about the camera, like, "Do I need to look at the camera? Do I need to look at you?" So I'm still working on it.
Steve: The thing about that is really there are only two people that can look at the camera. You're the host of the show, so . . .
David: So I can look right into the camera.
Steve: And the President of the United States. He gets to look at the camera, too. I guess that might be a little bit of an older rule, because now with everybody having their own show. I tend to want to look at the camera, too and look at who I'm talking to. But on TV, I've been interviewed on TV, and you go into a TV studio, and I say, "Where do you want me to look?" They say, "You look at me, and that's the interview. I'm the one that talks to the viewer," which is like an old TV way. It's kind of maybe changing a little bit, but it is a good idea to get that straight before you do an interview.
David: Totally. Interviews, it's a work in progress, and the more you do it, like you said, the better you get at it. That's with anything. Public speaking, being comfortable on camera. So, there you go Billy, there's your answer. So yeah, looking into the future, what are some new online video platforms that are emerging that you see that might be a big player? Or is it kind of YouTube's entrenched, so they're going to be around forever. That's what it is.
Steve: YouTube is insane. They are doing everything. They're even doing live now. They're getting into live.
David: Really?
Steve: Yeah. You have to be a partner right now. It's not open to everyone, but they're just starting to go into live. I don't know if you know what percentage of people are on Facebook. Is it like 60% of Americans or 80%? I don't know what it is.
David: It's a large, large percent, like 1 in 8. No, 8 in 10.
Steve: 8 in 10, so like 80%. Everyone's on Facebook. For my book "Get Seen" I was like, where am I going to do a community for the book? I started out using Ning, and Ning was going pretty well. Then, they started charging. So I was like, okay, I'll pay for something that's valuable, but I'm like, why don't I look around and see where else I might want to move my community. So I put it on Facebook, and when I put it on Facebook, everybody started commenting and participating, and I was like Facebook is where it's at. So I killed the Ning community, and I just have the book community on Facebook. Everybody knows how to use it. It's really easy to comment and participate.
David: They are logging in every day.
Steve: Yeah, to get messages. But the point about where to put video, you can put video on Facebook. Facebook has really improved the video quality that they allow on there. They have HD quality video that you can put on Facebook, and it also has that YouTube trick where you can just click that you have a webcam and record directly to Facebook if you just want to put videos up. Just go on your webcam, click record, and your video is up on Facebook. So there's YouTube, Facebook.
There are a couple of niche sites that are kind of interesting right now. There's one called VYou, and it's a question and answer site. So people type in a question and text to you, and you answer it on video. That's kind of cool. Another company that I worked with for a really long time is Qik. It lets you stream live from your cell phone, supports tons and tons of cell phones, and that's a great way to put video up online.
David: Especially timely stuff, right? If you're at a live event or what have you.
Steve: Just click stream. You set it up to send a message to your Twitter followers so they can watch live. They click over and they can watch you stream live. And when they go to the page, they can type in a text message to you which comes up on your phone, and they can talk to you. Hit stop, the video gets archived. You can put it on YouTube. So that's pretty cool. Not many people are doing live streaming with a cell phone. Companies that want to jump in on doing live really easy, streaming live with a cell phone is something that they could explore.
David: I feel like it's baby steps first, getting those first videos up. Just getting a Flip campaign. What is it, like $120 or something?
Steve: Now they're probably on sale, because they killed it.
David: Yeah. So starting off, you don't need all this fancy equipment, right? You just need a Flip cam. What about lighting? Is lighting super important? Or you could just get a work lamp from Home Depot or something, right?
Steve: Yep. You can get a work lamp. When I did a lot of work with the local PBS station here, I went out with the camera crews. At first, I was like, "Where's all your lighting and stuff?" He was like, "We don't use lights. We use natural light." So they look for where the light is. Like this room, it's brilliant. There are huge windows. So if I was doing an interview and I had no lights, you have lights here. I'd say, "Why don't we step over toward the window?" And I would make use of available light.
I see a lot of people making the mistake, they're in a conference and it's really noisy and it's dark inside and they're trying to interview somebody. It just the totally wrong place to do it. In that case, I would say, "Do you have a minute? Let's just go out in the hallway or maybe step outside. It's a beautiful sunny day right now." So I would go towards the light. Other than that . . .
David: Go towards the light.
Steve: Look towards the light. There's a big light. It's all calm and nice, and all your family is there.
David: I was told to stay away from the light. "No! Don't go to the light."
Steve: Go back. Go in the opposite direction. You'll see what happens when that day comes. Let me know.
David: Anyways, so what you're saying is you can create video content anywhere. You should be thinking about it. You're going to a conference. You're going to meet with a customer. There are all these different touchpoints where you can make video content and make it really easy with a Flip cam. Just know the basics, get the audio right, and just get the lighting right, and you're good to go, right?
Steve: Yeah. There are little lights that you can add to the camera, too. So I have those, too. I have a microphone that I add to my other camera that I have. So, you start with the Flip, and then you're like, "Oh. I might want to get a light, or I might want a microphone." Then you can get better. And then, "Oh, I might want to go from using a camera like the Flip camera to a higher-end camera where you can plug in a headphone jack and monitor the sound while you're shooting so you can hear what it sounds like."
So when I go on shoots now, I use a camera. I use them all. It kind of depends. But sometimes I'll bring a big light that I have. I use an LED light now, which throws no heat, and it's really bright. So I have a big LED light. I have an HD Panasonic camera with a flip-out viewfinder so that I can flip it around and look at myself to see how the shot looks. Then I have a shotgun mic that I plugin. Then I have headphones that I plug into to monitor how all the sound is sounding. So, that's where you can end up.
David: Okay, cool. Start small, then work your way up as you start getting more and more traction with your videos. Cool, awesome. So, what would be one takeaway that you would leave the audience watching it right now, tweeting in after they watch the video, what piece of advice would you leave for doing online video?
Steve: I would say look at what do you have on you right now? What cameras do you have right in your office? What do you have in your pocket? What do you have right there?
David: This is a Droid. I need a new phone.
Steve: The Droid actually is pretty good . . . my wife has the Droid X. That's a pretty good video, so use that. Some people have digital still cameras, and some people don't know that you can turn the setting to make it into a video camera. Use a webcam, iPhone. Start with the camera you have on you, use that, put some videos up. They can @ message me @SteveGarfield, look at this video. I'll check it out, give them some tips, we're friends now, and just get started.
David: Cool. So get started. So Steve, where can people find you online?
Steve: That's easy. The hub of everything Steve Garfield is at SteveGarfield.com. It's all there.
David: It's all there. All under one place, and you can tweet at him @SteveGarfield. Get some feedback from Steve, because he helped me set up this studio here today, and as you can see, it's kind of a different camera layout. I like it. I'm going to use this. Thanks, Steve.
Steve: All right. You're welcome.
David: So, hopefully, we can get you back on the show sometime, and yeah, thanks for coming on.
Steve: All right. Thank you very much.